Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market | Revenue, Sales, Demand Mapping, Market Share and Forecast
- Published 2026
- No of Pages: 120
- 20% Customization available
Market Summary and Growth Forecast
The global Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market is valued at $170 million in 2026 and is expected to appreciate to $2.8 billion by 2035, at a CAGR of 36.5%. The market is moving from technology demonstration toward early commercial deployment. CPO places optical engines close to, or within the same package as, high-performance switching and computing silicon. This shortens the electrical path between the processor and optical interface. The business benefit is clear: higher bandwidth density, lower interconnect power, and better signal integrity as network speeds move into multi-terabit architectures.
The Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market is particularly relevant to AI infrastructure. Large training and inference clusters are pushing conventional pluggable optics and copper links toward tougher power, thermal, and signal-loss constraints. CPO does not remove every bottleneck, but it changes where the optical conversion happens. That architectural shift can make a meaningful difference in high-radix switches and dense accelerator networks.
A major factor through 2035 will be the pace at which CPO moves from limited production into repeatable, high-volume manufacturing. Optical-engine yield, laser integration, fiber attachment, thermal management, advanced packaging capacity, and testing all need to mature together. A technically strong CPO design has limited commercial value if it cannot be manufactured consistently at acceptable cost.
The technology roadmap is also being shaped by the move from 800G toward 1.6T and eventually higher aggregate switch capacities. Industry standardization is helping reduce some interoperability risk. At the same time, advanced semiconductor packaging is becoming a strategic resource because CPO competes for packaging capacity with AI accelerators, networking ASICs, and other high-performance chips.
Regulation is not the primary demand driver in this market. Energy efficiency, data-center power availability, supply-chain resilience, and national investment in AI infrastructure matter more. Data-center operators are increasingly evaluating networking hardware not only by throughput but also by watts per transmitted bit and rack-level thermal requirements.
| Market Indicator | 2026 Estimate | 2030 Estimate | 2035 Estimate |
| Global Market Size | $170 million | $635 million | $2.8 billion |
| Annualized Growth | — | High-30% range | 36.5% CAGR, 2026–2035 |
| Primary Demand Center | AI/cloud networking | AI clusters + hyperscale | AI, HPC + telecom |
| Main Commercial Bottleneck | Yield and integration | Manufacturing scale | Cost, capacity and standardization |
The main consumers are hyperscale cloud operators, AI infrastructure providers, high-performance computing facilities, networking equipment manufacturers, and large telecommunications operators. Potential enterprise buyers will initially be concentrated among organizations running very large compute fabrics, where the savings from shorter electrical links can justify the higher integration complexity.
Key ecosystem participants include Broadcom, NVIDIA, Marvell Technology, Cisco, Intel, Coherent, Lumentum, and specialized optical-engine and photonic-integration suppliers. The competitive boundary is broadening because CPO requires coordination across switching silicon, optical engines, lasers, packaging, fiber connectivity, and manufacturing services.
Expert view: CPO should be viewed less as another optical-transceiver category and more as a packaging and system-architecture transition. The companies that control several layers of that stack are likely to have an advantage as deployments become volume-driven.
Market Segmentation and Forecast Scope
The Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market can be evaluated across Product Type, Application, End User, Data Rate, Technology Platform, Integration Approach, and Region. Each dimension reflects a different part of the purchasing decision. Product type shows what is being integrated. Application identifies where the technology creates value. End user captures who controls deployment. Data rate indicates the technical maturity of the network architecture.
By Product Type
The market includes optical engines, electrical switching or processing ICs, laser sources, optical interposers/substrates, and integrated CPO modules. Optical engines are strategically important because their yield, thermal behavior, and manufacturability directly affect system economics.
Optical engine-based solutions are expected to remain one of the most important building blocks through 2035. Fully integrated modules should gain momentum as customers move beyond trials and seek standardized production platforms.
By Application
Applications include hyperscale data-center switching, AI networking, high-performance computing, cloud infrastructure, telecommunications networks, and selected edge-computing environments.
Hyperscale data-center switching is expected to remain the largest commercial application during the initial adoption phase. AI clusters are creating particularly strong demand because network traffic between accelerators can grow faster than conventional electrical interconnect architectures can economically support.
The strategic opportunity is shifting toward AI scale-up and scale-out networks. These systems need both high bandwidth and predictable power consumption. That makes CPO more attractive than in conventional enterprise networking, where the economic case can be less immediate.
By End User
End users include hyperscale cloud providers, AI infrastructure operators, telecommunications companies, HPC centers, networking OEMs, and large private data-center operators.
Hyperscale operators are likely to influence specifications because their deployments can support the economics required for early CPO production. Networking OEMs and semiconductor suppliers will remain important because they determine how CPO is integrated into switches and accelerator platforms.
By Data Rate
The market spans 400G, 800G, 1.6T, 3.2T, and higher aggregate architectures. The commercial center of gravity is moving upward as switch bandwidth increases.
1.6T-class architectures represent one of the most strategic areas for medium-term investment. Higher rates increase the pressure on electrical reach, connector density, power consumption, and thermal design. That creates a stronger technical case for moving optical conversion closer to the switching silicon.
By Technology Platform
Major technology approaches include silicon photonics, indium phosphide photonics, VCSEL-based architectures, and hybrid photonic integration.
Silicon photonics has a strong strategic position because it can support integration with semiconductor manufacturing processes and dense optical interfaces. That said, laser integration remains an important engineering consideration. Different suppliers may therefore combine silicon photonics with externally sourced or separately integrated laser technologies.
By Integration Approach
The market can be divided into on-board optics, fully integrated CPO modules, and hybrid approaches. Fully integrated CPO offers the greatest potential for reducing electrical interconnect distance, while hybrid designs may provide a practical transition path for customers concerned about serviceability and component replacement.
By Region
North America, Europe, Asia Pacific, and LAMEA form the principal regional markets.
North America should retain a leading position during the early commercialization period because of its concentration of hyperscale cloud companies, AI infrastructure investment, networking-chip suppliers, and advanced semiconductor ecosystems.
Asia Pacific is expected to be the fastest-growing regional market through 2035. Semiconductor manufacturing depth, optical-component production, data-center expansion, and growing AI infrastructure investment provide a broad foundation for adoption.
Only selected 2026 shares are disclosed below to maintain a focused view of the market rather than create false precision across every sub-segment.
| Segmentation Dimension | Key Sub-Segment | 2026 Share / Position | Strategic Outlook |
| Application | Hyperscale data-center switching | ~58% | Largest initial deployment base |
| Technology | Silicon photonics | ~54% | Strong platform for dense integration |
| Data Rate | 800G | Not disclosed | Important near-term deployment class |
| Data Rate | 1.6T and above | Not disclosed | Fastest-growing strategic opportunity |
| Region | North America | Not disclosed | Early commercial leadership |
| Region | Asia Pacific | Not disclosed | Fastest regional growth trajectory |
Expert view: The most important segmentation change may not be geographic. It is the shift from CPO as a specialist optical technology toward a standard design option for next-generation switching platforms. Once that happens, the addressable market expands beyond early-adopter data centers.
Market Trends and Business Innovations
The innovation cycle in the Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market is now focused less on proving that optical integration works and more on making it manufacturable, serviceable, and economically competitive.
One major R&D direction is the increase in optical bandwidth per electrical lane. The industry has been moving from 100G/lane architectures toward 200G/lane, with future designs targeting still higher signaling rates. This progression requires improvements across modulators, photodetectors, drivers, receivers, packaging, and thermal design. A gain in one component is not enough. The complete optical-electrical path must operate reliably as a system.
Advanced packaging is another central area of development. CPO places optical and electronic components in close physical proximity, which creates demanding requirements for thermal expansion, alignment, fiber routing, optical coupling, and assembly precision. As a result, semiconductor packaging companies and outsourced semiconductor assembly and test providers are becoming more important to the ecosystem.
Material and component innovation is also continuing. Silicon photonics provides a scalable platform for optical integration, while compound-semiconductor technologies remain relevant for laser functions and other photonic elements. Hybrid approaches can therefore remain commercially important even as silicon photonics expands.
Thermal engineering is becoming a competitive differentiator. CPO can reduce the electrical distance between switching silicon and optical conversion, but placing optical components close to high-power ASICs creates its own thermal-management challenge. Future designs will need to balance optical performance, laser reliability, cooling architecture, and package density.
AI is relevant here, but mainly as a demand catalyst rather than an embedded CPO function. AI models require large accelerator clusters and increasingly dense communication fabrics. That demand is pushing switch bandwidth higher and making interconnect power a more visible part of data-center economics. AI workloads therefore strengthen the business case for CPO without requiring AI algorithms to be directly embedded into the optical module.
Industry collaboration is also becoming more important. Broadcom has continued advancing CPO architectures toward higher per-lane speeds and broader ecosystem participation. NVIDIA has been pursuing CPO-based networking architectures in collaboration with manufacturing and packaging partners. Industry groups are also working toward common optical and electrical interfaces, which can reduce the risk of customers becoming locked into one proprietary implementation.
A notable development is the formation of broader optical-interconnect collaborations involving AMD, Broadcom, Meta, Microsoft, NVIDIA, and OpenAI around open specifications for optical scale-up infrastructure. The significance is larger than one product launch. It signals that major AI infrastructure buyers increasingly want a multi-vendor optical ecosystem rather than a single-source architecture.
There is no need to assume that mergers will define this market. Partnerships, technology licensing, manufacturing agreements, and joint development are more relevant at the current stage. The industry is still assembling the supply chain needed for volume deployment.
| Innovation Area | Current Direction | Business Impact Through 2030 |
| Optical lane speed | 100G → 200G/lane and beyond | Supports higher switch bandwidth |
| Packaging | Tighter optical-electrical integration | Raises bandwidth density |
| Photonic platform | Silicon photonics + hybrid laser integration | Improves scalability |
| Thermal design | Optical components positioned closer to ASICs | Becomes a key reliability factor |
| Manufacturing | Greater emphasis on optical-engine yield | Determines volume economics |
| Interoperability | Open interfaces and multi-vendor initiatives | Reduces adoption risk |
| AI infrastructure | Rapidly increasing network bandwidth requirements | Strengthens CPO business case |
Expert view: The next competitive battle will be fought in manufacturing, not only in optical performance. A CPO design that delivers excellent bandwidth but has low optical yield, difficult field servicing, or limited packaging capacity may struggle commercially. Conversely, a slightly less ambitious design that can be produced consistently at scale could win the first large deployment programs.
The overall direction is clear. CPO is progressing from an engineering-led concept toward a broader infrastructure decision. 2030–2035 should therefore bring greater emphasis on standardization, supply-chain depth, package reliability, and total cost of ownership. Those factors will determine whether CPO becomes a mainstream architecture across high-end networking or remains concentrated in the largest AI and hyperscale deployments.
Competitive Intelligence and Benchmarking
The competitive structure of the Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market is still developing. Unlike traditional optical-transceiver markets, competition extends across switching silicon, photonics, lasers, packaging, fiber connectivity, and complete networking systems. This makes ecosystem depth as important as individual product performance.
Companies with control over several parts of the technology stack have an advantage during early commercialization. At the same time, specialist suppliers can capture value where their optical, laser, packaging, or connectivity technology becomes difficult to replace.
Broadcom
Broadcom holds one of the strongest positions in CPO because it combines high-performance switching silicon with optical connectivity and advanced photonic integration. Its portfolio covers switching platforms, optical engines, high-speed electrical interfaces, photonic components, and CPO-oriented packaging.
The company’s market position is strengthened by its focus on high-radix Ethernet systems for AI and hyperscale data centers. Its CPO development has increasingly focused on 200G-per-lane signaling, optical-engine yield, thermal management, fiber routing, and manufacturing scale.
Expert view: Broadcom’s main advantage is the ability to treat CPO as part of the complete switch architecture rather than as a separate optical component.
NVIDIA
NVIDIA approaches CPO primarily through AI infrastructure. Its portfolio spans AI accelerators, high-performance networking, switching, optical interconnects, and rack-scale systems.
The company has been expanding its photonics strategy as AI clusters become larger. Its CPO approach is designed around reducing network power and improving bandwidth density across large AI factories.
NVIDIA’s ecosystem strategy is particularly important. It involves semiconductor manufacturers, optical-component suppliers, packaging partners, and fiber-connectivity companies. This can accelerate commercialization because CPO requires several technologies to mature together.
Expert view: NVIDIA could shorten the CPO adoption cycle by integrating optical networking directly into AI-system roadmaps.
Marvell Technology
Marvell Technology has a strong position across custom silicon, optical connectivity, high-speed data-center infrastructure, and photonic technologies.
Its strategy is suited to customers seeking customized networking architectures. The company can participate at several layers, including switching and processing silicon, optical DSP technology, and photonic integration.
Marvell’s position becomes more attractive as AI infrastructure operators seek alternatives to highly vertically integrated networking platforms. Its broad ecosystem relationships also give it flexibility across different CPO deployment models.
Intel
Intel remains an important technology participant because of its experience in silicon photonics, semiconductor manufacturing, optical integration, and advanced packaging.
The company’s position is particularly relevant to the manufacturing side of CPO. Silicon photonics can provide a scalable route for integrating optical functions with high-volume semiconductor processes, while Intel’s packaging expertise addresses the physical integration challenge.
Its opportunity is strongest where customers value integration, manufacturing consistency, and compatibility with broader semiconductor architectures.
Coherent
Coherent occupies an important upstream position in lasers, optical components, photonic materials, and manufacturing technologies.
Its role becomes increasingly important as CPO requires compact, reliable, high-performance optical sources. The company is positioned to benefit even when the final CPO module is designed by another company.
The strategic importance of optical-component capacity is also increasing. If CPO deployments accelerate faster than laser and photonic-component production, upstream suppliers could become critical points in the supply chain.
Lumentum
Lumentum is a significant supplier of lasers and photonic components used in high-speed communications.
Its CPO opportunity is linked to the increasing density and performance requirements of optical engines. As optical conversion moves closer to switching silicon, the reliability and efficiency of the laser source become more important.
Lumentum’s position is therefore more specialized than the integrated strategies of Broadcom or NVIDIA, but that specialization can be valuable in a market where optical-source performance directly affects system reliability.
Cisco
Cisco brings a different competitive profile. Its strength is in networking systems, enterprise infrastructure, service-provider networks, and a large installed customer base.
The company can influence CPO adoption as higher network bandwidth and data-center power requirements move beyond the largest hyperscalers. Its opportunity is less about controlling the optical component itself and more about integrating emerging optical architectures into complete networking systems.
Competitive Benchmark
| Company | Core Strength | Market Position | Strategic Advantage |
| Broadcom | Switching silicon and photonic integration | Early commercial leader | Deep networking and CPO ecosystem |
| NVIDIA | AI networking and photonics | Rapidly expanding | Strong control of AI infrastructure architecture |
| Marvell Technology | Custom silicon and optical connectivity | Major infrastructure supplier | Flexible, multi-layer platform |
| Intel | Silicon photonics and semiconductor integration | Established technology participant | Manufacturing and packaging capabilities |
| Coherent | Lasers and optical components | Critical upstream supplier | Strong photonic-component expertise |
| Lumentum | Lasers and optical technologies | Specialized component supplier | Optical-source capabilities |
| Cisco | Networking systems | Large potential system adopter | Global networking customer base |
The competitive picture points to two routes to leadership. The first is vertical integration, where a company controls switching silicon, photonics, and packaging. The second is specialist dominance, where a supplier becomes essential in lasers, optical engines, connectors, or advanced packaging.
Regional Landscape and Adoption Outlook
Regional development of the Co-Packaged Optics (CPO) Market will be closely tied to AI data-center construction, hyperscale computing, semiconductor manufacturing, photonics expertise, and advanced packaging capacity.
The United States has the strongest position for early commercial deployment. China, Japan, South Korea, and Europe have important technology and manufacturing capabilities. India and the Middle East represent emerging demand centers with strong long-term infrastructure potential.
United States
The United States is expected to remain the leading early-adoption market through the remainder of the decade.
Its advantage comes from the concentration of hyperscale cloud providers, AI companies, networking-chip developers, semiconductor manufacturers, and advanced data-center operators.
AI infrastructure is the strongest demand catalyst. Large accelerator clusters require increasingly dense networking, and the power consumed by optical and electrical interconnects is becoming a larger part of total infrastructure design.
The country also benefits from substantial private investment in AI data centers and government support for domestic semiconductor manufacturing and technology infrastructure.
Adoption outlook: Very high.
Market position: Early commercial leader.
Primary demand: Hyperscale data centers, AI factories, advanced networking.
Europe
Europe has strong capabilities in photonics, optical communications, semiconductor equipment, materials, connectors, and advanced research.
Its CPO opportunity is likely to be more concentrated in technology development and component supply than in extremely large domestic AI clusters. European companies can therefore capture value through optical engines, connectors, packaging, photonic components, and specialized manufacturing.
Energy-efficiency requirements are another supportive factor. Data-center operators face growing pressure to control power consumption, which can improve the long-term case for more efficient optical interconnect architectures.
Adoption outlook: Moderate to high.
Market position: Strong technology and component ecosystem.
Primary demand: Advanced data centers, telecom infrastructure, research-intensive computing.
China
China has a broad electronics manufacturing base, strong optical-component capabilities, large data-center infrastructure, and substantial domestic demand for AI computing.
The country has an opportunity to develop a more vertically integrated CPO ecosystem covering optical engines, lasers, packaging, switching hardware, and system manufacturing.
However, restrictions affecting advanced AI processors and high-end semiconductor technologies can influence the availability and economics of some advanced networking architectures.
This creates an incentive for domestic development of photonic components and related manufacturing technologies.
Adoption outlook: High potential.
Market position: Large domestic opportunity with strong manufacturing depth.
Primary demand: AI infrastructure, cloud computing, high-performance computing.
India
India is emerging as a high-growth infrastructure market rather than an established CPO manufacturing center.
The country’s expanding cloud ecosystem, data-center construction, AI investment, and digital-services industry create a growing future demand base.
The near-term market will likely be driven by deployment of imported high-end networking equipment. Over time, semiconductor incentives and electronics-manufacturing programs could support local packaging, assembly, testing, and potentially optical-component production.
India’s main advantage is the ability to build new infrastructure without carrying the same level of legacy networking equipment found in mature markets.
Adoption outlook: High growth from a smaller base.
Market position: Emerging deployment market.
Primary demand: Cloud infrastructure, AI data centers, hyperscale facilities.
Japan
Japan has strong capabilities in optical components, fiber technologies, precision manufacturing, connectors, materials, and semiconductor-related technologies.
These strengths align closely with CPO requirements. High-density optical connectors, fiber attachment, optical materials, and precision packaging are particularly relevant.
Japan’s opportunity extends beyond domestic data-center deployment. Its companies can participate in the international CPO supply chain as component and technology suppliers.
Adoption outlook: High strategic importance.
Market position: Strong optical and component ecosystem.
Primary demand: Optical components, connectors, photonics, advanced packaging.
South Korea
South Korea has major strengths in semiconductor manufacturing, memory, advanced packaging, electronics, and high-density computing.
The convergence of AI accelerators, high-bandwidth memory, advanced semiconductor packaging, and optical interconnects creates a natural opportunity for CPO-related technologies.
South Korean companies are well positioned to participate in the packaging and semiconductor-integration side of the market. The country can also become an important manufacturing location for advanced optical-electronic assemblies.
Adoption outlook: High strategic potential.
Market position: Advanced semiconductor and packaging ecosystem.
Primary demand: AI infrastructure, semiconductor packaging, high-performance computing.
Middle East
The Middle East is relevant primarily as an emerging AI infrastructure market.
The United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia are investing heavily in AI, cloud infrastructure, data centers, and sovereign technology capabilities. Large AI clusters could create demand for high-bandwidth, energy-efficient networking architectures.
The region is not yet a major CPO manufacturing center. Its opportunity is therefore demand-driven.
CPO adoption will depend on the scale of AI deployments. Conventional enterprise networks will provide a smaller opportunity, while large AI factories could become important early customers.
Adoption outlook: High project-driven potential.
Market position: Emerging demand center.
Primary demand: AI factories, sovereign cloud, hyperscale data centers.
Regional Comparison
| Country / Region | CPO Position | Infrastructure Strength | Investment Environment | 2030 Outlook |
| United States | Early commercial leader | Very strong AI and hyperscale base | Very strong | Very high |
| Europe | Technology and component stronghold | Mature | Strong R&D support | Moderate-high |
| China | Large domestic ecosystem | Very strong | Strong domestic investment | High potential |
| India | Emerging adopter | Rapidly expanding | Growing AI and semiconductor investment | High growth |
| Japan | Optical-component leader | Mature and advanced | Strong industrial R&D | High strategic value |
| South Korea | Semiconductor and packaging strength | Advanced | Strong corporate investment | High potential |
| Middle East | Emerging AI infrastructure market | Rapidly expanding | Strong sovereign investment | High project-driven growth |
Expert view: The United States is likely to establish the first large commercial CPO deployments, but Asia will remain critical to the supply chain. Japan and South Korea can capture value through components and packaging. China has the potential to build a more self-contained ecosystem. India and the Middle East are more likely to emerge first as major demand centers.
Recent Developments + Opportunities & Restraints
Recent Developments
March 2025 — NVIDIA expands CPO-based AI networking
In March 2025, NVIDIA expanded its silicon-photonics strategy for AI networking and presented CPO as a technology for large-scale AI factories. The initiative brought together semiconductor, photonics, packaging, fiber, and optical-component partners.
The development is important because it shifts CPO from an isolated optical technology toward a complete AI-networking architecture.
March 2025 — Broadcom advances high-speed CPO
In March 2025, Broadcom expanded its high-speed optical-connectivity roadmap for AI infrastructure, including technologies supporting 200G-per-lane signaling.
The move highlights the industry’s transition toward higher lane speeds as AI clusters require greater network bandwidth without proportional increases in interconnect power.
May 2025 — Broadcom introduces third-generation CPO
In May 2025, Broadcom announced its third-generation CPO architecture. The development emphasized higher lane rates, improved optical-engine yield, thermal design, fiber routing, and manufacturing processes.
The significance goes beyond bandwidth. Manufacturing yield is becoming one of the most important commercial questions for CPO.
October 2025 — CPO reliability milestone
In October 2025, Broadcom reported a major reliability milestone involving CPO networking deployed in a large-scale data-center environment.
The development provided an important signal that CPO is moving toward production-level reliability rather than remaining limited to laboratory and demonstration systems.
March 2026 — NVIDIA invests in Coherent
In March 2026, NVIDIA announced a strategic partnership with Coherent that included a $2 billion investment.
The agreement focuses on advanced optics, manufacturing capacity, research, and optical technologies required for next-generation AI infrastructure.
The investment is strategically significant because optical-component supply could become a constraint as AI data-center deployment accelerates.
May 2026 — CPO enters production within NVIDIA’s AI platform
In May 2026, NVIDIA announced that its next-generation AI platform was entering full production, with CPO-based Ethernet photonics forming part of its networking architecture.
This marks an important transition from CPO development toward actual deployment at large AI-infrastructure scale.
Opportunities
1. AI Factory Networking
The strongest near-term opportunity comes from large AI clusters.
As accelerator counts increase, networking becomes a larger contributor to power consumption, rack density, and system complexity. CPO can address part of this pressure by moving optical conversion closer to switching silicon.
2. Optical Supply-Chain Expansion
CPO adoption creates opportunities across the supporting ecosystem.
Demand should expand for optical engines, lasers, fiber-attach technologies, connectors, photonic substrates, packaging equipment, and testing systems.
Specialist suppliers can therefore benefit even when they do not manufacture complete CPO systems.
3. Emerging Data-Center Markets
India, the Middle East, and other rapidly developing digital infrastructure markets offer longer-term opportunities.
New data centers provide operators with an opportunity to adopt newer networking architectures without having to replace extensive legacy infrastructure.
Key Restraints
The largest barrier is manufacturing complexity. CPO requires optics, electronics, lasers, packaging, fiber routing, thermal management, and testing to work together at high yield.
Serviceability is another concern. Conventional pluggable optics can be replaced individually. CPO integrates optical functions much more closely with the switching package, potentially increasing maintenance complexity.
Cost is also important. CPO offers its strongest economic case at very high bandwidth densities. For smaller networks, conventional pluggable optics and other lower-complexity architectures may remain attractive.
Finally, standardization will influence adoption. Customers want confidence that CPO components, optical interfaces, and manufacturing ecosystems will remain interoperable over the life of their infrastructure.
Expert view: The next phase of CPO competition will be decided by manufacturing economics and deployment reliability as much as by optical performance. The winning platforms will need to deliver bandwidth, power efficiency, serviceability, and scalable production at the same time.